Chairman of the Association of practicing ecologists Laura Malikov explained Vadim Boreyko what mining companies are lobbying the draft Environmental Code.

In December of this year for consideration in Parliament, it is expected to draft a new Environmental Code of Kazakhstan will arrive. Chairman of the Association of environmental practitioners Malikova Laura - one of those who took part in the consideration of the bill as a working group member. In the capital of Kazakhstan I met her journalist Vadim Boreyko.

Engineer on the Protection of Nature

Laura thought to be a journalist, but then decided to study engineering. She graduated from the Kazakh-British Technical University engineering degree, an internship at the Shymkent and Atyrau refineries. After high school, she was offered a job environmental engineer waste in a construction company in Aktau. Then Laura two years left to study in Sweden in the master's degree in environmental engineering. After returning, she worked in the service of the company, then in the mining and later returned to the same construction company in Aktau, where she was promoted to the Environmental Protection Coordinator of the environment in the project "Kashagan-2", in which the change defective pipe for transporting oil and gas from the island in the Caspian sea to Karabatan. After that Malikova was offered a job by environmental consultants in the capital,

"We hope that our proposals in the Environmental Code will be"

Laura Malikova:  There are two environmental areas - natural sciences and engineering. The first - is the science of the environment: it studies the plants, the animals, the cycle of materials, climate change, etc. The second - engineering ecology:.. It has more to do with such engineering disciplines as physics, chemistry, technology, clean, mathematical models, etc. . in this direction, and I studied in Sweden.

The environmental engineering basic knowledge - common to most sectors of the economy: if a person worked an environmental engineer in the oil sector, then it can work with such a wealth of knowledge Ecology in the construction industry. Moreover, in the oil requirements are much tougher than in construction. I also worked in "environmental design" and in the field of environmental consulting companies, where we have advised more than 40 companies in various fields of economy of design, technology and environmental reporting.

I participated in the consideration of a new draft of the Environmental Code, was a member of the working group. Who prepared the final version of the project, but before submission to Parliament hope that some of our proposals to define the cost of environmental design, for the industrial and environmental monitoring at enterprises, to revise the content and quantity in environmental reports, which have not yet taken all the same will. We're their advocate.

Operation "Association"

Vadim Boreyko:  Tell us how you came to the idea to create the Association practicing environmentalists.

Laura Malikova:  When working on the production, make sure that between ecologists, environmental engineers in enterprises and government agencies there is no connection. Politics can not by themselves to discuss any changes, orders, draft codes, but without the involvement of practicing ecologists who work in manufacturing. Then I decided to create an association that would bring together ecologists and practitioners across the country, and could represent their interests at various venues in the consideration of legislation and initiate laws, and explain to them the norms of legal acts in the field of ecology. So in 2018 we founded the Association with a colleague practicing environmentalists.

VB .:  What are now members of the association?

LM .:  Five organizations working in the field of ecology, and about two dozen individual members.

garbage apocalypse

VB .:  Ecology - bottomless topic, so let's get into our discussion will focus on one segment - the trash. I was very impressed with your  post  on Facebook on July 21 on the theme of garbage and inspired on the first  column  , "A Great Beginning Minister of Ecology," and then an interview.

To quote the first paragraph of this post: "In Kazakhstan, following the results of last year processed only 12% of solid-waste (MSW), the remaining 88%, including the valuable recyclables, contrary to the requirements of Ekokodeksa sent for disposal to landfills. The country has about 3,000 landfills, of which only 18% meet the sanitary requirements of Kazakhstan. " I feel, here lies a garbage apocalypse.

LM .:  These data are taken from the Energy Minister Kanat Bozumbayev report for 2018. It turns out, three thousand landfills less than one in five, correspond to sanitary rules. And the most exemplary of them - the one that is in the capital. I personally went to the range: there is a bed for geomembrane, the filtrate was isolated, all cleaned, as required by law.

VB .:  It is worth recycling plant?

LM .:  On the one hand polygon - plant where the sorted waste materials produce, on the other - a cell for waste disposal portion remaining after the waste sorting complex.

VB .:  The waste buried in the ground?

LM .:  Buried in the cell. Of the total volume is separated only about 15%: plastic, aluminum cans, PET bottles, cardboard. The remaining 85% is sent to landfill for disposal, including secondary raw materials that could be reused, sold, disposed of. Capital landfill is considered as an example for all regions.

However, the performance of the equipment in the waste sorting facilities is not high enough for sorting recyclables out of the waste volume, it is necessary to increase, as has increased several times over the last decade the population of the capital.

VB .:  And organic and the inorganic are buried together?

LM .:  While yes. When the Governor of the capital worked Asset Issekeshev (. From June 2016 to September 2018 -  Ed. ), It was decided that the city will install containers for the two types of waste: one - the so-called "wet fraction" (food waste), the other - dry type of solid waste. Also decided to dispose of food waste by kompostinga, as a result of which you can get fertilizer for agriculture.

VB .:  What kind of waste is dry types of solid waste?

LM .:  Paper, cardboard, plastic bottles, aluminum cans, glass, etc. - that is, everything that does not contain a part of the moisture and must be recycled and reused.

The plans of the capital akimat - start processing food waste, but it is necessary to carry out propaganda to agitate, educate the public, to explain that the wet fraction is necessary to separately collect. And this still poorly, and are not involved NGOs.

VB .:  What is the level of sorting and recycling of solid depth across regions?

LM .:  These are different everywhere. Capital Factory, as I said, at the moment directs to recycle only 15% and was 12% in 2018. Almaty region demonstrates a high level - almost 30% in 2018. In Karagandinskaya area - about 16%, in Aktyubinskaya - 12%, Shymkent - about 19%, although there is no I noticed containers for separate waste collection, Almaty - about 6%. The average level of sorting and recycling of solid waste by 14 provinces and three cities of republican significance - 11,5%. But 50% still no region is reached.

separate collection problems

VB .:  A few years ago near my house have put modern garbage containers, and on them was written, "glass", "cardboard, paper", "food waste", etc. But the people throwing bags of garbage there, where there was an empty seat, while the inscriptions are not erased.

I know only a few enthusiasts in Almaty, who rents in points Admission cardboard, plastic bottles, used batteries: because for this it is necessary to specifically go somewhere

We have the concept of separate waste - at the freezing point. Many would be happy to share, but there is no such tradition. Although, for example, in front of the house of Austria residents put up a dozen bags - the number of types of waste, until the egg shell, and picks up garbage.

LM .:  If you look at the experience of OECD countries, the number of which Kazakhstan wants to come, then, for example, in Sweden, different containers have established even for dyed and undyed glass.

But we, at least in the capital, followed by the experience of South Korea, which I myself observed in Seoul. There give two containers: the first - to the types of waste that can not be processed, another - for recycling. Our gone down this path. But I guess, when only two containers are, people are not so interesting to sort waste, as in the case of installation of containers for each type. If there were several containers is possible, residents would start a different attitude to the separate collection of waste.

VB .:  In Kazakhstan, I only saw the EXPO-2017 containers for three types of waste.

LM .:  Yes, there they were, if I remember correctly, paper, plastic and other species.

Waste - in revenues

VB .:  How many companies in our country are engaged in garbage?

LM .:  At the end of 2018 transporters, shippers, processors was 170.

VB .:  A waste treatment plants?

LM .:  In the capital works waste sorting facility for waste treatment plants in Almaty delivered this year in Shymkent is planned. This I list the cities of national importance.

VB .:  inform you good news - the plant in Atyrau, opened at the end of July. In April I was in the "Legends of the South" expedition and met with  Azilhanom Baybatyrovym , social entrepreneur from Atyrau: he was the initiator and inspirer of this project. Although the plant was built LLP "Spetsavtobaza" and Azilhan not even the number of its staff.

LM .:  I know him, ekoaktivistov not so much.

VB .:  Azilhan wrote on Facebook: «This is only the first steps, more will only get better. And someday the waste management sector, this will be the backbone. Three years ago, I dreamed that a shop was built. A very long time cherished the idea, and finally she realized. And I'm now really happy that I could make a small contribution to this project. Incidentally, the shop was constructed entirely on the investor's money. Akimat of money is not allocated. "

LM .:  100 000 tons of processing per year - it seems, is not enough.

VB .:  I read that in the Atyrau garbage winter exported 200-250 tons, and in the summer of 250-300 tons, multiplied by 365: just about 100 thousand tons in and out. In the picture we see people from the conveyor. Do they manually sort the garbage?

.: LM  equipment is not yet to the point where smart to distinguish the different types of waste plastic from glass, aluminum cans from other types of waste. So you have to use manual labor in such conditions.

Where he lives environmental awareness

VB .:  In 2005 I was in Sweden, where you studied and observed what is called environmental consciousness in action.

LM .:  Swedes spent a half a century.

VB .:  We learned in journalism school FOJO near Kalmar, a city in the south. Every evening, I took great and ride through the woods, along the bike paths, and through them to galloping deer and hares.

I asked the Swedes as they have reached such an agreement with nature. I replied that it was bad after the war, until they are taken out of the country all the polluting industries. It took two generations for 50 years. According to your estimations, how much time to even bring up in Kazakhstani environmental consciousness, but at least teach them to separate collection of waste?

LM .:  Based only on the experience of Sweden, we can not say that we also need a half-century. It is necessary to take into account that now the XXI century, in the world there is a rapid exchange of information, increases the brain's ability to process it. I can not say specifically that we will need 10 or 20 years. It depends on how you will work state bodies responsible for this area. If they are as passive as it is now, people do not learn to sort, perhaps for more than half a century.

Much here depends on the education and information of state bodies. Colleagues told me about the experience of Switzerland, where for six months consciously ceased to show on TV educational programs and public service announcements on the topic of waste. And soon saw along the roads has increased dramatically the number of discarded packets. It turns out, a lot depends on what kind of work will guide state agencies.

VB .:  And I experienced firsthand, engaging in environmental issues is not very long, about two years old, but very firmly, that the representatives of our government agencies do not do any environmental awareness, even hint at it. Officials learned one phrase: "We comply with the Aarhus Convention" - and all. But how many times I was convinced that they even did not open it, this same convention.

We regard environmental protection as "kulturku" as an unpleasant burden that must be performed. And finance its leftovers - as the rasposledny segment of the social sphere. Meanwhile, in the advanced countries, environmental aspects have already been laid in the foundation of the economy in general and of all life.

LM .:  I agree with you completely. Most likely, this is the legacy of the state that it was before. As in the Soviet Union for the environment, we see the historical pollution of rivers and other natural components.

VB .:  You call them "historical"?

LM .:  Yes, because for many years it is polluting, and then because of the negligence of government agencies all remains the same as it was. Such a superficial approach to environmental protection, unfortunately, inherited Kazakhstan. In 2014, disbanded the Ministry of Environment and Water Resources, which is intended to achieve the objectives spelled out in the concept of the transition to a green economy. Just took - and in one fell swoop all abolished. Then scattered committees on different ministries, and in the end it turned out that the environmental challenges at the system level to realize no one.

VB .:  Ecology actually stayed in the house of Cinderella "stepmother" - the Ministry of Energy. That is, it gave up for adoption the main pollutant.

LM .:  And she is also had to be repaid in the form of fines and payments to the budget (for environmental pollution -.  Ed. ).

Due to the one in the Urals, the fish died?

VB .:  Let's get back to your post to Facebook. You write: "For system solution of problems of waste management, as well as dozens of other environmental problems on the state level, we persistently offered throughout the year to create a separate Ministry of Environment and Water Resources, because the Ministry of Energy, in whose conducting there are committees and departments responsible for matters ecology, safely ignored a lot of problems. "

The Ministry of Environment and Water was abolished in 2014, when the minister was Nurlan Kapparov, who then headed the "Kazatomprom". Five years we have lived without the environmental ministry. What are the benefits in the field of environmental protection work of the Ministry of Energy during this time?

LM .: Not to say that everything was bad. But this is not so important that there should be a separate ministry. It is important that decisions are taken in a complex. If the Committee of ecological regulation and control was in the structure of the Ministry of Energy and Water Committee - under the Ministry of Agriculture, then they can make orders that are contrary to each other. This led to the fact that the environment in the production wondered which of the orders to use? As a result of fragmented actions of government agencies, which were under the control of different ministries, whose main task was not to protect the environment, and there was such an environmental disaster as the mass death of fish in the Ural River in Atyrau. Many somehow think that the incident occurred only because of the fact that someone has something on the spot did. And in fact it is a systemic problem,

VB .:  Explain in this case worked uncoordinated agencies.

LM .:  For example, Department of Environment (if it was local office environmental Energy Regulatory Committee) controlled issues relating to air quality and pollutant discharges in water. Territorial Administration of the Forestry Committee of the Ministry of Agriculture and fauna - protection of animals and fish. Spatial separation Water Board - number of intake and discharge of water in the river. All of them were under the jurisdiction of different ministries, obeyed the orders of various ministers, the main objective of which is not environmental protection. And it happened as in Krylov's fable "The Swan, cancer and pike."

But in theory, they should look comprehensively and water quality, and air quality, and waste, and on the condition of the soil, etc. There Kazhydromet designated by the State monopoly, which leads the analysis and in the air and on the water. He reports, and the ministry, and this, but when it came time to respond to an emergency, began fragmented, uncoordinated actions are not consistent with each other, and as a result there was here such mass death.

VB .:  Explain how it is connected.

LM .:  The situation could have been prevented. In November last year Kazhydromet took water samples and identified the excess of the maximum allowable concentration of chlorides. But water resources committee does not respond, department of ecology, too: asleep, or for any other reason. And in early December, we began to discover a dead fish. But even then they did not react quickly. There was supposed to respond to the regional Department of Forestry and Wildlife Committee MoA. It was necessary to carry out a massive reclamation fish catch. Drill holes in the ice, catch fish. It did, but too late.

VB .:  Who was named the culprit of mass death of fish?

LM .:  "Atyrau Su Arnasy" (water company, the state-owned utility, in August 2019 the CHP assets transferred to the trust management of Open Company "Diar and the Company." -  Ed. ): A dead fish were found in the area where the company releases water . According to the monitoring of water quality in cross-border rivers, at the border with Russia excess chlorides and other contaminants was not. That is, the problem was local, it is in part of the Ural River in Atyrau. Judging from the video to social networks, the dead fish found in the area where the "Atyrau Su Arnasy" releases water.

VB .:  But the investigation did not go further?

LM .:  Now there are hearings, questioned stakeholders on various aspects.

VB .:  defendant only "Atyrau Su Arnasy"?

LM .:  In the media there was information that the Atyrau CHP also pleaded guilty.

VB .:  But state agencies, of which you speak, were to do with it?

LM .:  As far as I know, so there is no question that the state authorities are responsible. But in fact it is the result of lapses on their part. If there was appointed, their task - to control, prevent PE. That is, when they have received from Kazhydromet data on exposure limits are exceeded, then we had to react immediately. But the missed time, and it turned into an environmental disaster.

What lobbying group of friends in the Environmental Code

VB .:  I continue to quote your post: "The Ministry of Environment (. Geology and Natural Resources -  Ed. ) Have created (by presidential decree Tokayev, June 17, 2019 -.  Ed. ), Only when you create a group of people took advantage of this in a purely personal interests , completely discrediting the very concept of the creation of the Environmental Affairs department of a separate environment, having to offer combine in this department more and geology, and natural resources, and to recommend [as minister] candidacy Magzum Mirzagalieva, unskilled in environmental issues. " To him come back later. And what is the "group of people" and whose "purely personal interests"? Whom do you mean?

LM .:  During the discussion of the new draft of the Environmental Code in the working group, I saw a lot of oil, steel, mining companies. I assume that their task was to the new Environmental Code was no requirement, contrary to their interests. So that they then do not have to invest in it (environmental safety, and measures to protect the environment -.  Ed. ). Appointment of Environment Minister oilman of education and experience - is, I believe, the result of the support of the group of people who lobby the interests of the biggest polluters in our country.

I understand that we have investors, billions of dollars in investment, jobs and so on, but we can not continue to continue to work - just that the investor was happy with everything, and people complained about the air quality in the black snow, state agencies accused of collusion with them, and so on.

Those same investors in other countries - for example, ArcelorMittal in Canada - comply with environmental requirements. But in Kazakhstan for some reason do not. Because we own state bodies that are empowered to regulate the activities of investors, indecisive, reinsured to the ones they do not complain. Foreign investors may scare to say: uydom the country. Well, let them go. Or let them work properly - both in Canada and not in Temirtau.

I believe that the balance between the environmental requirements and the interests of investors still can be found, but for some reason on the part of government agencies is very passive approach: as long as the investors were silent. We have a weak government.

VB .:  Weak against investors?

LM .:  Weak in a general sense - and in terms of the competence, qualifications, and in maintaining the balance of different interests.

"Shame on the state administration"

VB .:  You just write about the competence of the minister: "We even NGOs recruit people by training and experience in the environment, and then to the central government body responsible for environmental issues, appointed by the minister is absolutely not qualified in the field of human ecology, which has neither the education nor the one day of experience in ecology. Is not it a shame the state administration ?! "You have nothing personal to Magzum Mirzagalievu?

LM .:  No. I do not know him at all. I know of many natural resource management executives, environmental departments, those who work in the Committee of ecological regulation and control of the Ministry know people who deal with environmental issues. And it turns out, before that worked on energy and oil industry. And in a moment, it is unclear for what services, and by what criteria, he suddenly became a minister in a completely different field - in the field of ecology.

VB .:  It was perhaps the first major post-election appointment. At first I was delighted - hurray, the environmental ministry revived! And then revered biography Minister - and this personnel decision seemed to some misunderstanding. But in light of what you talked about the oil industry lobbying their interests in the new Environmental Code, now it is the appointment of a little bit different look. Like "looking" for the environment set by the Ministry of Energy. You called the appointment "a disgrace of public administration." These are strong words. What lies behind them?

LM .:  By "shame of public administration" is meant that there are systemic problems and errors that should be corrected. If Kassym-Zhomart Tokayev during his campaign talking about meritocracy, it is necessary to put in order the public appointments system of public administration in accordance with the principles of meritocracy. Only then will the people's trust. Personally, I now have confidence in the minister is not present, because she worked in the field of ecology many years in different areas, and that is the direction in which I still want to deepen their knowledge and experience. A person who does not have no education, no one day of experience in the field of ecology, immediately became a minister.

VB .:  And maybe he inquiring mind?

LM .:  I beg you! There is a "rule of 10 000 hours": to become a professional in any field, one must deal with issues of this sphere about 10 thousand hours. To see the root of the problem, you need to have the appropriate education and experience in the field of ecology. Man must be prepared and not to train in ministerial positions.

VB .:  You fasting Mirzagalieva appeal to conscience: "It is surprising that an absolute layman in ecology has agreed to become a minister. After all, a person must be an internal [doubt] but whether my qualifications this work? Mirzagalieva but it did not bother. " You might think, "there" is given time to think on reflection: "Oh, you know, I do not" Copenhagen "in ecology, I apologize." As they say, where to send - to get Ambassador. If you do not know how it is.

LM .:  Well, a man could have to recuse. But I do not think that this appointment done without his desire to become a minister. This rarely happens that a man walked alone, and they took him and put the minister.